Well the Warcraft 30 Year Anniversary presentation had a little something for everyone, shockingly even for the StarCraft sickoes of the world. It was a surprising little tidbit from the Hearthstone team, but it came off the back of a very cool question that was asked during the development of their latest cosmic adventure: What’s the most surprising, delightful thing we could do in space?
Turns out leveraging another space-borne IP that has long been dormant was a no-brainer – and promises to give The Great Dark Beyond an unforgettable mini-set that remembers the conflicts of far-gone galaxies.
Excitedly, I got to spend some time with some talented people that know their spacefaring stuff – the incredibly knowledgeable and enthusiastic Nathan Lyons-Smith, Executive Producer & Vice President leading Hearthstone, and Tyler Bielman, the Game Director for Hearthstone, who have both seen some far-out stuff in their time working with all things card-like.
Most exciting is that they were happy to geek out about StarCraft in general, and talk about some of the wondrous tech-debt that comes from creating wish-granting genies and monstrous beast building cards.
WellPlayed: So let me just address the amazing sci-fi elephant in the room and just start by pointing out that the 30th Anniversary of Warcraft celebration within Hearthstone is a tribute to Starcraft.
Nathan Lyons-Smith: Yeah, I’ll touch on logistically how that happens, right? We have three amazing Warcraft games. They’ve got their own road roadmap, millions of players – and how long ago did we green-light the Starcraft thing? Like, it must have been more than a year ago.
Tyler Bielman: A little over a year ago.
NL: At that point, we know that this year is a big year for Warcraft – But our anniversary is in March. Then we ended up doing this really cool Warcraft Direct and saw the updates from each of the games. But our big thing just around the corner to talk about is this juxtaposition with Starcraft, which, you know, has a different universe, but also roots, right? Starcraft very much came out of Warcraft. And so we’re happy to follow in those steps. Warcraft 1 and 2 leading to Starcraft and similarly Hearthstone with Warcraft characters and then Hearthstone with Starcraft characters. The reaction we’ve seen has been really positive. Lots of love for bringing that beloved IP to play. So that felt really good.
Thankfully, Tyler saved the day by ending the Warcraft Direct with three upcoming bangers of Hearthstone sets that are really heavy in the Warcraft lore. So players got a mix of, ‘HUH’ but also, ‘Oh, that’s really cool.’
Can’t wait to jump back into those environments with those sets and experience that Warcraft lore.
WP: So it wasn’t a deliberate decision to stand out? It wasn’t like the one sibling that turns up to the family photo wearing black when they were told to wear white?
TB: Ha! I mean, we are Hearthstone. We do things a little differently. We are one of the little siblings of the family. But it’s a big party. We invite everybody.
WP: Regarding the new sets that are coming out. One of them is the first time we have seen a sequel to a previous one. Is that something that was driven by fan demand? Was there just a great reception to the original Un’Goro set that had you bookmark it for a revisit? Or is it a case of you guys liked it internally and wanted to go back?
TB: Yeah, there’s a couple of different things in place. Certainly some of the stuff you’re mentioning. It’s obviously a beloved, successful fan favourite expansion as well as being a setting in Warcraft that’s incredible. But we also do a lot of research. We talk to players. We put out surveys of things that we could do. And we had a concept kicking around about this lost city, this sort of like ‘El Dorado’ style adventure. And, you know, we started to think about it.
It was testing pretty well. And so we started to think about where would you put that? Well, it was really kind of natural that you set it in Un’Goro and then like, what does that mean? So it really was a confluence of a lot of love and attention for an affection for that expansion. Plus this idea that the designers were passionate about and in particular our lead designer of that set is passionate about. Then kind of just end up putting the peanut butter with the chocolate and boosting everything up. And then we’re also really excited about, you know, Tortollans and their whole deal.
It wasn’t a clear decision to ‘just’ do a sequel. It was really like, this is a cool idea. This is a great setting and a great set from the past. Let’s see if it works together. We try stuff. We play around with things. We look at the mechanics and see what stuff we want to bring back and how it works. It just worked out really nicely.
WP: So commonly it just feels like those pieces just start to fall into place? That is what coalesces the idea?
TB: I mean, the same thing sort of happened with Starcraft. We knew we were going into the Great Dark Beyond. We knew we were going to get this sort of interstellar expansion. And then we asked ourselves, what’s the most surprising, delightful thing we could do in space?
You have these natural conversations. We didn’t go into the concept of doing the Draenei expansion with the idea of doing Starcraft as a companion piece. It wasn’t until after we’d committed and we were moving forward, we started to ask ourselves, what should we do with the mini set? What’s the biggest, boldest, coolest thing we could do?
We try to ask ourselves that every time. And that sort of did a lot of legwork to make sure we could do it well, to make sure that Blizzard leadership was supportive, which they absolutely were. It is a pretty organic process. I mentioned that we do market research. We do tests of set themes. And when we have, we get that signal from players and then we’ve got the passion of the team. And so that combination is really what comes together to make sort of great, great set ideas and great set hooks.
WP: Were there a lot of members of the Hearthstone team that were pushing the idea the moment Starcraft got mentioned?
NL: Yeah, definitely. We have a Hackathon twice a year for your mind. We have devs that used to work on Starcraft, Heroes of the Storm. We have many players in the strategy genre on our team who really love those games. And so every now and then, as people are doing Hackathon, there’s a question of, what would this opportunity look like? How would we bring those characters in? What might some of the art look like? So definitely combining with the market research that we do fuels the passion on the team for doing it. Because we know if we can line both of those things up, we’re going to hit a home run.
WP: Well, now that you mentioned Heroes of the Storm, I look forward to that crossover at some point in the next 10 years, maybe for the 20th anniversary of Heroes of the Storm.
NL: Ooh, interesting.
TB: Okay, noted. Thanks, Ash. Also: We have nothing to announce at this time.
WP: Ah, if I had a dollar for every time I heard those words.
WP: As part of the presentation, it was pointed out that Arena in Hearthstone has persisted in almost its original state since it was released. With the introduction of the ‘Underground’ Arena format, is that something that came from observing how the current Arena works? Or was that something that was coming through from, as you mentioned, the customer based surveys of users who perhaps wanted a quicker, dirtier, way to recognise their greatness? What was the main driving force to start concepting that?
TB: Yeah, working backwards, definitely we had heard from players that they wanted more recognition, which is why you end up with the rankings in the revamp. But the genesis point was really looking at what people play in the game. How much Standard play is there? How much Battlegrounds play is there? And Arena is right up there. We have not given Arena a lot of attention commensurate with the amount of play that we have.
We also looked at not only what people are playing through the data, but also what they tell us in different avenues of what they want more of. I’m a big fan of doubling down on the stuff that works – and Arena has worked really effectively. And we haven’t given it a lot of attention. So we’ve entered into this development phase saying, what do we want to double down? What do we want to invest in? And Arena was an area that we wanted to explore investing in.
I’m a big fan of limited formats, coming from all the way back in the paper play days and so are a ton of the team. So then we did research about what people wanted to do. And like that led to some of the ideas like redraft on loss, for example. It makes a lot of sense. When you think about it, drafting is the fun part. Why not let you draft in the middle?
It seems logical now, but on the face of it, there were a lot of different things we could have done. And so by splitting it into Normal and Underground, we actually are able to play a little bit in that Underground format and experiment a little bit more. It gives us a latitude to do some different things while making sure that classic Arena experience will still be there. I mean, it is getting a little bit of a change too, but that standard classic Arena isn’t going anywhere. So, you know, we want to put these incredible delightful experiences in front of players and then chase what works.
WP: What kind of design pillars were in place when it came to actually putting together the Underground format? What main things did you want to hit as far as criteria for what a player should experience?
TB: I don’t know if I can tell you the exact pillars in a formal sense. I will say that we went in challenging – I won’t say everything – but we did go in saying, you know, anything goes. For example, the initial draft experience is not even that sacred, right? We’ve messed around with things like having you pick a Legendary right off the top to give you direction. So we knew that we wanted to continue to try to lead the player to the things that were the most interesting and the most exciting. Part of what we’re going to attempt to do with Underground is – and I’m being really careful because there are things we haven’t announced yet, and I don’t want to scoop the announcement – but leading players that are not as experienced in draft formats to successful initial builds is kind of important, right? The idea of drafting being the fun part. So we introduced this redraft on loss from listening to players saying that they wanted a ranking system that valorized how performant they are in Arena.
I would say those conform to a lot of our overall design colours: leading the player to the fun, celebrating their successes, surprise and delight. Those are all things that are key to what we do all the time. But we did try a lot of different things with Arena. And this is the combination of things that are coming out of the gate with Underground that we’re going to try.
That’s all I can say right now. I will also say we definitely have a pillar around if you spend time and love and energy in the game, we want to reward you accordingly. And so we also want to make sure that there’s an on-ramp there for deeper investment by a player that can lead to deeper reward patterns. That’s probably as close as I can get to the third rail without really talking about stuff. So those were the kind of design principles that went into the thought process for Arena.
And, you know, one thing I really like about Hearthstone is we have this ability to try stuff and change things. It’s a live service. And so I think with Underground, I don’t want to feel stuck in the way we launch it, it’s the way it’s going to be. It gives us a platform to try some different things.
WP: So right out of the gate, Underground has the freedom to be a bit more volatile?
TB: Yeah, it will be more volatile than normal Arena will be. We’re going to give ourselves permission to see what happens with Underground and make some adjustments.
WP: Is there going to be a cadence that dictates how changes happen? Or is it more of a case of ‘as you feel they need it’ – or will it possibly be more seasonal?
TB: I would not say that it’s definitively seasonal. I would say that we’re going to do what is right. I don’t think it’d be right to say that we’re committing to a seasonal stuff model yet.
WP: What is something from the 10 years of Hearthstone that you look back on? Looking at Hearthstone now compared to what it was all the way back then, how do you feel about the journey that it’s been on and how do you feel about its future moving forward?
NL: I’ve been playing for 11 years. I think I got in beta November before the March launch, 11 years. It was a very accessible game to get into. A lot has happened in the free to play gaming space over the last 11 years. Card games in particular, an area that wants to make sure we keep turning the dial and making it easy for players to get into.
So years ago, before I was on the team, they did the duplicate Legendary protection, right? You don’t get a second copy of a Legendary before you get all of them, which is great because there’s this Bolf Ramshield video that was popular way back in the day. This guy opened six Bolf Ramshields. It’s one of my favourite Hearthstone videos. I felt so bad for this person. I was not on the team yet. And then, you know, the Hearthstone team saw that and thought …we should probably change that, right? We extended that to all rarity Legendaries a few years ago. It really made it easier for players to actually get their collection without getting penalised for opening extra. One of my takeaways from that is it’s a digital game. So we get to lean into being digital and control things like that. It helps us smooth out some of that experience that you don’t get in physical.
We’ve done more since then.We did catch up packs of BlizzCon last year, so players coming back could really fill their collection fast. I think one thing that landed really well with players is when you are new player, or returning player, we give you a loaner deck – we let you choose from six loaner decks. You can try them for a week. And then you pick one to keep. That’s gone over really well. The idea to let players keep one came from one of our designers. Play for a week and then pick.
We just continue to work on making it easy and fast to get into the game to get as many returning players back in. And of course, welcoming new players as well. But with 157 million players in Hearthstone’s lifetime, we just love to get a bunch of those back to see what we’re doing. We make it attractive to come back. So we’re going to keep iterating on that.
TB: If you just play a game of Hearthstone and look at the cards you’re playing and think about things like could you do this elegantly or at all in physical – a lot of them, you can’t. And that is part of the secret sauce that continues to this day that we lean in on. I think the future will be around continuing to focus on where the players are, how to best serve them. I think that when we do these calculated experiments, they’ll be very calculated, they’ll be very meaningful. I think I’m very much a focus oriented sort of director.
I want to find the things that are working the best and then just really push right and over deliver for players. Since I’ve been here the last year and a half, not super long, you’re only just starting to see the things that I had some impact on coming out. And so I think we’ll continue to see that kind of approach as we go forward.
But I’m really excited about being able to announce three expansions this far at a time to demonstrate and show to players how Azeroth is central to these themes that we’re going to have going forward. I’m super excited about Year of the Raptor and the stories we’re going to tell. I think we’re really set up for a great year.
WP: As you say, the beautiful thing about Hearthstone as a game is that it’s a card game, but it’s a digital card game, which means that while it is reminiscent of something that you could play in real life, there’s very clearly fantastical elements to it. Is there an internal metric for when something feels a little bit too off the wall?
For example, Nozdormu makes the turn rope counter completely change – But is there a point where you sort of go, maybe that in-game interaction is just too bizarre, too far gone, it completely destroys the fantasy we can’t do that?
TB: In the time that I’ve been here, I have not seen anything in development that I think would tip me that far. We obviously do things that are very powerful and meta-defining, and we sometimes miss on balance, but I don’t think that’s the genesis of your question. I think your question has more to do with disruption of the core systems, for example. We’re very delicate and careful with the mana crystal system, for example. There’s areas where I think the team has learned over 10 years of design theory and experimentation showing what does and doesn’t work. Our lead initial designers in particular have a really good sense of where we can push an experiment, while our final designers, the folks that are responsible for the quality going out the door, are also making sure that the stuff that we ship is both balanced and fun. So that process of initial and final does a really nice job. I think we have a long backlog of stuff we’d like to do and try. The team is incredibly creative. But personally I have not yet seen the thing that I would have to veto because we’re like, nope, that’s just too disruptive.
But Nathan has been here longer. So it’s possible he has a nice anecdote of something that came across his desk.
NL: I also don’t see the spiciest of things. But the thing that came to me that was like, what the heck? The first time we made Zephrys the Great. He grants three wishes and we’re going to use a bunch of intelligence to pick cards that you might want. I was like, oh my gosh, that card’s going to be so complicated to make, right? And the team was celebrating like, yeah! It’s a really complicated card to make!
I was like, oh, okay, great. I hope it lands well. And it did land really well. It had some upkeep costs that we pay sometimes to make sure Zephrys the Great keeps giving you adequate choices and that can be hard. Signing up for forever work is like a difference tax for digital, right? And with a paper format, whatever, not really worried about it. But in digital, we need to make sure it keeps working. Before I was on the team, Deathstalker Rexxar ‘Build-a-Beast’ kept getting updated for future beasts. Holy cow. So a handful of those.
Most recently, we talked about The Ceaseless Expanse, a card coming in The Great Dark Beyond with a 100 mana cost. I think it’s 100 now. We might be changing that. I don’t think we are changing the mana cost – I think it’s a different change coming for that. Spoilers, I don’t think we announced that. But yeah, that’s definitely the highest cost card we’ve ever made. But, you know, it’s really fun.
But I look forward to all the future wacky ideas from the team to figure out just how much to push.
Oh, one thing, I think we brought Leeroy back into the core set this year. And I love Leeroy Jenkins. My favourite card. I’ve got a Leeroy Jenkins print above my desk. I remember when we had to Hall of Fame Leeroy for great reasons, right? It’s like, hey, Leeroy’s had his moment, he’s in every deck just pushing six damage to face. And so I’m like, we really brought Leroy back? Thankfully, we made some changes. And you know, he’s less prevalent today. But you know, that Leeroy had his time, a lot of fun time for Leeroy not to dominate every match.
WP: If anyone’s going to dominate, it should be Leeroy. At least he has chicken.
NL: At least he’s got chicken. That’s right.
WP: This has been fantastic. Thank you so much.
TB: Thanks so much, Ash.
A heartfelt thank you to both Nathan and Tyler for being so open with their answers – it’s clear that they enjoy making fun experiences that stem from great ideas. It’s amazing to think that an entire decade has passed since Hearthstone erupted into the game space, bringing with it a massively unique perspective to the Warcraft franchise – as well as a hearty disruption to the digital card game space.
There is plenty to look forward to, given the incredible horizon of goodies promised by both Nathan and Tyler – and for fans of StarCraft, make sure you jump in and enjoy the mini-set when you can. Maybe Blizzard will notice and deliver more space-borne nifties in future.
